Thursday, 23 June 2011

Religious discussion part 1

I'm having a religious discussion at a forum and I just have to share it with "all my readers" (if you really are that many). I'm an atheist and the guy I'm discussing it with is a hardcore christian, living in Spain cause Sweden is too godless :P

So I'm dark green and he's dark blue.

People aren't afraid to die, they are afraid of what's on the other side of death, since it's unknown. They are not afraid to die, they are afraid of being forgotten. They are scared that when they've died there will be nothing left to prove that they really existed. It's seen as frightening.

People who are afraid to die haven't yet accepted the fact that it will happen sooner or later, both to you and to those you love. When you've accepted this, that it's inevitable and a part of the natural order, the fear disappears.

I have done this. I'm not afraid to die, for a very long time I wanted to die. I no longer have any deathwish, but I'm not afraid. To the contrary, I have a pure interest in death and how it works. I don't want to know why we die, I want to know what happens when we do, both physically and mentally. Medically if you want. I don't belive in any afterlife. On the contrary I despise the thought. I like to see death as a final destination, when we have arrived there we've reached the end of the journey and that's where we stay. When you die you're gone. Either you get burned and turn to ashes, or you're buried in a box in the ground where worms slowly disintegrate the body. Easy. Simple. Nothing to be afraid of.


What's on the other side of death isn't unknown.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10
"For the living knows that they will die, but regarding the dead, they are not conscious of anything, neither do they have any wage, for the memory of them is forgotten - Everything your hand finds to do, gives to their own your power, for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in sheol, the place where you're going."

However I accept the life the Maker offers us further on.

The Book of Revelations 21:3-5
"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: "See! God's tent is among the men, and he shall live among them, and they shall be his people. And God himself shall be with them. 4 And he shall wipe every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more; neither will sorrow or screams or pain be no more. What once was is gone." 5 And he who sat on the throne said: "See! I make everything anew." And then he says: "Write, for these words are trustworthy and true.""


What you're talking about is an afterlife. Something that does not exist. Besides, a life without sorrow and pain isn't worth living. Man is what she learns and experiences. Without sorrow and pain we won't learn the hardships of life. Even if we don't want sorrow and pain are they necessary. So if you cross out that you "live" with God after death (thus an afterlife) what is left? Then do you know what's on the other side of death? Or is it unknown?

Can you give an answer with your own words and not copy from the Bible? I would like to determine whether you can think for yourself or if you are completely brainwashed by the Bible and Christianity. Everything I've seen you write in the forum have been Bible quotes or very evasive answers that don't really answer anything. Do us all a favour and become somewhat independent. Can you stand on your own without holding the hand of God/Jesus? Are you a grown person?


Sad that you don't appreciate life

Oh, I appreciate life :) Since I've accepted death as the end I live as if every die were the last one, because I know it could be. There is nothing after death, no second chance, so I do everything I want to do now so I don't have to regret anything when the journey is over :)

You have no choice but to accept death, however accept the life God gives us, there you have a choice.

I appreciate life now, it doesn't stop me from accepting a continued life. There isn't a chance that you can manage to do everything you want to do in those 70-80 years we have.
Book of Revelations 21:3-5
http://www.bibeln.se/las/2k/upp#q=Upp...

Why wouldn't it be possible to manage to do everything you want in the time we've recieved?

In that case you can pin-point the day you've done everything you want to do. Besides, you don't know if you die tomorrow.

Exactly. I have no idea if I'll die tomorrow or tonight. So I try to make sure I do things that make me happy and make sure I die happy. You make me sound as if I have some kind of list of things I want to do.

Then you only chase after food and pleasure like an animal!? Not a meaning of life? Why are people so unwilling to see that the global warming is a fact that is slipping through our hands?

There is no meaning of life so it feels unnecessary to chase after it.

Animals are considerably smarter than humans give them credit for. Some of them are proved to be smarter than humans. Mankind only happened to be most adaptable and happened to have thumbs. I want to have fun. So yes, I only chase pleasure. That's what I want from life. I want to have fun and do things I think matter, not just for me but for things I think are of importance. For example saving endangered species, fight against global warming and protest against political injustice.

The climat change is a normal thing. It's proven that what forced the man apes to evolve into actual people with bigger brains actually was the climat changes several million years ago. What happens now is a natural change that we have fastforwarded with our industries. We will never be able to stop it completely, but we will be able to slow it down. Besides humanity isn't what is threatened by the global warming. Humanity lived through the last ice age tens of thousands of years ago and we can do it again. What the global warming threatens is our comfortable lifestyle. Global warming is no judgement day. January 1, 2013 I will laugh at those who thought the world would end in 2012. In such a case, what would kill us before the global warming is the super volcano Yellowstone in USA. That volcano only has an eruption every 5000ed year and it's 4900 years since last time. It's not an exact date either, it could happen tomorrow or in 500 years. That volcano will make a big ass crater out of all of USA and cover the earth with an ashcloud that the sun won't be able to break through. With no sun, no summer and no plants or trees. No plants or trees, no oxygen.

Research your possiblities of extinction before you start your preaching.


If there is no meaning to life, then why not erase the meaningless?

This climate change has happened in 150 years and that with the help of humans.


I don't understand what you mean by erasing the meaningless...

How much the climate can change we have yet to see. Those few degrees that the average temperarure have increased with are just the beginning. We didn't create the climate change. It would have come anyway. We just fastforwarded the process. So yes, partly with the help of humans.


If life is that meaningless, why live? Because we have a wish to live eternally. We make plans, we mourn the dead, we have abilities that aren't necessary for the survival of mankind and so on. We don't need to worry about nature, either there is a Maker or not, that the future of the nature will decide, not us. We have fastforwarded the process with millions of years in only 150 years of our rule.

Life has no meaning, everything is just a lucky (?) coincidence. It doesn't mean that everything is over and that you should be depressed and wait to die. Do what you can with your time instead.

I have no wish to live eternally. I can see myself as an energetic 90-year-old (just like my three greatgrandmothers, all of whom I've met ;)) who later will die happy because I've done the most and best of my time. Beyond that I don't want to live. People who want to live forever are just afraid to die.
http://elinchan.blogspot.com/2010/09/...
http://elinchan.blogspot.com/2011/04/...
http://elinchan.blogspot.com/2011/05/...

Yes, we mourn the dead. Actually not because they've died, but because we realise that we will never be able to meet that person again, never talk to him/her again, never hug him/her. It's a big thing. But I think the whole funeral ceremony in the churches are ridiculous. They are more for the mourning than for the dead (or do you think that the soul hangs around until we've placed the body in the ground?). Funerals have more and more become a way to express your support and condoleances to the next-of-kin and an opportunity to eat sandwich layer cake.
http://elinchan.blogspot.com/2011/01/...

Yes, nature saves itself, even without a Maker. Nature is its own Maker.

We haven't fastforwarded the process that would've happened during millions of years so that it has happened in only 150 years. Remember that it's 4 million years since the last climate changes and that that change ended only 10,000 years ago. Those 150 years we've had to affect haven't done a lot. The Earth is 5 billion years old, do you really think our 150 years of heavy industries will have that big of an effect? We have helped a little, very little, a process that would've happened anyway. But we haven't created anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB0aFP...

Most of the links are from my blog. I've already blogged about everything we talk about, but more detailed than what I can write here.


If you have no wish then it's your choice, sad choice when you could have an eternal life, healthy, young, no deseases plus a fair government.

You describe the sorrow of death, why if it's so natural?


How can an afterlife by the side of God be that great if several of those who have helped create this world are there? This world sucks. How can that world be any different?

Death is natural. Sorrow is also natural. As I said people don't mourn that the person dies. They mourn that they miss the person and will miss that person for a long, long time. It's the missing they mourn, not death.


To be continued

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