Wednesday, 31 August 2011

Religious discussion part 2

Part 1 is here. This is the end of the discussion and I should have posted it a long time ago.

I'm dark green, and he's dark blue.

We don't go to Heaven, we are awoken on Earth after we have finished proving that we can rule the Earth and the society without God the way we want.

If you want to see death as natural, then it's your choice.
Why life if there is no meaning?

And we don't have such a long time nowadays, because without God we have soon fixed our collective suicide through nature.

Why die at all if God is going to revive us again?
For the reason that we chose to show if we could control the human society, we turned our backs to God. God could then have deleted us, but chose to let us prove what we could do and it's on that road. During that time He lets us, in free will, choose the broad or the narrow path.

I ask once again:
How can life after death by the side of God be that good if several of those who helped create this world is there? This world sucks. How can that world be different?

How can life after death be that much better? Because we don't age, don't become ill, don't die? How can there be any difference at all if we regain life (an invulnerable life) at the same damn planet? This cursed place! I hate the world. The world is a horrible place and it's not just cause we age, become ill and die, but because people are horrible. People hurt eachother. Physical wounds heal, mental never do. People are idiots and I like to see death as a final destination to not having to meet all the idiots that hurt you, either consciously or unconsciously. Mankind will never emend. All the "good" people who've never broken any of God's bids and pray and go to church etc will all "live" by hos side. In that case I'd rather choose the alternative. I'd rather choose to live amongst the sinners. More open people, more alive people, who don't spend their time looking down on others who don't live godfearing lives. It's vile. It's despicable. And it doesn't get any better. None of it will change only because they get to live again. I have those unhealable mental wounds given to me by people, and now I can't do anything else but looking down on mankind. Including myself. So explain to me, what benefits would I have had from choosing a life after death by God's side? Now is your chance to convince me. Give me a reason. Something I can't  upbraid, something I can't appeal or argue away. Do what Jehova's Witnesses fail doing when they knock on my door.

I have no faith in any god, but I also have no faith in mankind. I don't believe in any supernatural power greater than myself. I'm a total atheist and I enjoy it. I've never had any childhood faith. The Bible stories have always been on the same level as fairytales. That Jesus walked on water or revived Lazarus is in my book none the different from The Little Mermaid or The Ugly Duckling.

I answer once again, we are not by God's side but on a rinsed Earth where God rules, but now mankind has learned that she can't rule herself.

Today we live under these circumstances:
"Time and unpredicted occurrences happen to all" it's said in Ecclesiastes 9:11. This means that whole lot of things happen without us being able to do anything about it.
We are at the wrong place at the wrong moment.
Ecclesiastes 8:9
"All this I have seen when I directed my heart to every deed made under the sun, in a time when mankind had the power over mankind to her injury."

But if we are careful and thoughtful in hour deeds this will prevent many accidents. "Whatever a person sow, this will she also reep" is it said in Galatians 6:7 which verify the relationship that our deeds will inevitably have consquences, some of them very bitter.

Read this as well:
Imagine that you've built a housing estate.
Everything is new and clean, most tenants are good people with well brought up children.
But then you get a tenant that's the exact opposite.
Vandalises and destorys, *he has wild parties all through the nights preventing the other tenants from sleeping.
And under the affection of drogs he has also started to push small children down the stairs.
Do you think it correct to evict a tenant like that?
If he has small children, can you evict him but let the small children stay there alone?
Parents have a resposibility for their children.
If the children have bad parents the children will suffer.

God has created the planet Earth and everything on it.
God's intentions for Earth is that it will be a paradise where only good people who treat eachother well will live. There is no place for people who rape, abuse, steal etc.
That's fair considering the good people to remove the bad ones.

Talking about hell.
To put someone under eternal torture isn't fair.
God hasn't created any hell, it doesn't exist.
However, God will let people who have died, but who haven't had a fair chance to prove whether they're evil or good, to be resurrected from the dead and then show their worth.
That's justice.

Sounds as if God is as big of a dreamer as his followers. That will never happen.

It's up to you to chose your path.

By the way, you once asked in the forum if the god of Abraham would be triune. He wasn't. Abraham is in the Old Testament, that basically is the Jewish Torah. The grounds of Christianity is in the New Testament and it's also not until there where Jesus shows up. Jesus himself was Jewish, as was Abraham. Trinity wasn't thought-out yet.

It's everyone's God, even in OT everyone had the possibility to worship the true God. Jesus didn't show up, it was already prophesized when Adam misdid in Genesis 3:15

Ask a Jew or a Muslim what *he thinks about you saying that the Christian god is everyone's god. The Christian god is only the god of the Christians. Jehova is for example the name of the god mentioned in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament God doesn't seem to have a name anymore. Why this development?

There are no historical evidence whatsoever that Jesus have existed. Chronology is a cultural phonmenon that has come from the Christianization of the Roman Empire that started to spread the Christian message with crusades, preachings, missionairies and forced baptisings. All writings about Jesus were created after his death, and since being able to read and write wasn't that common in those times, but sagas were oral traditions the stories were added to as time went. When they finally were put on paper the stories had been added to a lot.

The Jews have recognised Jesus in the history of their religion. But only as a prophet, not in any way more extraordinary than Moses, Abraham or Noah. Likewise the Muslims have acknowledged Jesus. In the Coran Jesus is called Isa and there also he was only a prophet. Every single one of the Abrahamitic religions have one main prophet. To the Jews it's Moses who came with God's Ten Bids and freed the Jews from Egypt. To the Christians it's Jesus. To the Muslims is Mohammad.

There are also those who says that Christianity isn't monoteistic since Christians worship three holy entities; God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit (in some cases  even the Virgin Mary).

Are you conscious of your religion's history from the point of view of religion investigators and the school books? Or do you only follow the words of the Bible?

What can Jews, Christians or Muslims answer, they have no god with a name, just look at what their actions have led to.

The greatest man that ever lived.
Is there any one man who undeniably can be said to be the greatest man that ever lived? What is it that makes a person great? Strategic skills? Physical strength? Great intelligence? The historian H.G. Wells said that a person's greatness can be measured after "what he sows and if he makes people think differently with a passion that lasts after he's gone". Despite Wells not being Christian he confessed that: "According to these criterias Jesus is the greatest." Alexander the Great, Charles the Great (who was called "great" already when he was a live) and Napoleon Bonaparte were powerful rulers. Through their awesome presence they exercised great influence over their subordinates. Napoleon is said to have said: "Jesus Christ has exercised influence over his subordinates and ordered them without physically being there." Through his dynamic education and by living as taught Jesus have powerfully affected the lives of people for about 2000 years. As an author expressed it: "All armies that have ever marched, all navies that have ever been built, all governments that have ever been in power and all kings that have ever ruled have alltogether not affected the life of humankind as much as this only person." A historical person.

But strangely enough there are still those who says that Jesus never lived - the the figure of Jesus is made up by people who lived during the first century. The reputed historian Will Durant gave the sceptics this answer: "That a few simple men in one single generation could create such a powerful and agreeable character, such an elevated etic and such an impressive version of human brethrenship would be a miracle by far more incredible that the wonders describen in the evangels." Ask yourself: Would a person who has never lived be able to exercise such a great influence over the history of mankind?

The encyclopedia The Historian History of the World explains: "The historical consequences of... [Jesus'] doings were very important, even from a purely worldly point of view, than the achievements of any other historical person. A new era, that's acknowledged by the whole world, is dated from his birth." Yes, those are really words worth considering. Even in the calendars of our day are based on the year he's said to have been born. As it is written in The World Book Encyclopedia: "Years before that year is written as BC, i.e. Before Christ, or as AD, i.e. Anno Domini." Critics insists however that everything we really know of Jesus is to be found in the Bible.

It's said that there are no other contemporary document mentioning him. Even H.G. Wells wrote: "The old roman historians ignored Jesus completely, he left no traces in the historical documents of that time." But is this true? Even if references to Jesus are relatively rare in historical sources, there actually are such references. Cornelius Taciitus, a noted roman history writer who lived during the first century wrote: "Their leader Christ had under Tiberius' governing been crucified by the procurator Pontius Pilatus." Two other roman writers from that time, Suetonius and Pilinius the Young, also talks about Christ. Furthermore Flavios Josephus, a Jewish history writer living during the first century, mentions the disciple Jacob whom he identifies as brother to Jesus, also called Christ". Referring to these mentions in historical documents it's said in The Encyclopedia Britannica: "These independent descriptions proves that in ancient times not even the opponents of Christianity ever questioned that Jesus was a historical person, which was for the first time questioned by several authors in the end of the 18th century, the 19th century and in the beginning of the 20th century., due to inadequate basics." Pretty much everything we know of Jesus was written by his followers during the first century. Their accounts have been kept inside the evangels - the Bible books written by Matthew, Markus, Luke and John. What do these accounts tell us that Jesus was?

What their actions have led to?!??!?! The Jews must be the only one of the Abrahamitic that actually have been peaceful and only been subjected to lies, threats and prejudices for thousands of years.

What Christianity has led to? The extinction of several cultures, crusades (war in God's name, ridiculous!). Christianity has taught us to be afraid of that what's different and wanting to transform the differences to something generic. That was how forced baptisings started (to force the poor pagans to a religion that offered them salvation, what a joke!). It taught us that all other religions are dangerous and should be extinguised. Do you know how many wars that have been started in the name of religion?!?!?!?! The reason to have killed most people in world history is religion. Second place is communism and third place is the Third Reich. Do you have any historical sources that people used to be fighting over religion before to Chritianization of the Roman Empire? Christianity has also led to prohibitions against abortion and contraceptives, something that has created great successes for HIV and AIDS, and raped teenage mothers. It has led to millions of people still, in this age, listens to a half-senile old man in Rome! Where's the logic in that? If we for a moment pretend that God created the world, then his greatest mistake was to give humankind free will. Why ddin't he remove the free will when he noticed that things started to go to hell? Why didn't he give up completely and extinguished us completely in the so called cataclysm?

The Muslims are like the Christians. Their chronology is 400 years behind ours. How did Christians (specifically Catholics) act in the 17th century? Exactly. If you haven't noticed the Muslims have started to wake up an riot. I'm happy for them.

Yes, Jesus are mentioned in some texts. A name. Nothing more. In writings outside the Bible he's a name, but nothing more. There is nothing that indicates that he was what he said he was. There is nothing who contradicts that he was a big lier who tricked people into believing him. They haven't found the grave he supposedly borrowed cause he couldn't afford his own. They haven't found a skeleton. Furthermore there is new research questioning if Nazareth even existed as a city in Jesus' time. There are signs that Nazareth was hardly more than a small, small village if it even existed. So there are doubts that Jesus (if he existed) can have been from Nazareth. Don't forget that pretty much all texts in the Bible are written hearsay. They are written long after his death.Just because some of them are written during the first century doesn't mean that they are contemporary. Jesus didn't become over 40 if I remember correctly. All those writings you wrote about... None of them are written by eye-witnesses. There is no protected documentation from eye-witnesses to Jesus' "wonders".

Your defintion of great people... The first one I thought of was Martin Luther King.

All human actions have led to despait and will go nowhere until this has happened:
Book of Revelations 11:18
"But the nations were wrathful, and your own wrath came, and it pointed out the time, when the dead will be judged and when you will give payment to your slaves, the prophets, and to the holy, and to those who fear your name, the small and the big and plunge them into the corruption that corrupts the Earth."

2 Peter 3:7
"But through the same words are the skies and the earth that are now separated by fire and are kept until the day when the ungodly people will be judged and destroyed."

So you believe we will be judged by God. Do you think the judging happened on May 21st? Do you think the world will end this autumn?

I must also ask, out of pure curiousity; do you look up quotes in the Bible to answer me or do you actually know all that by heart?

If all human actions have led to despair... Did the human writing of the Bible lead to despair?

If you follow the bid to love your neighbour, then it would be better now already.

The world will not end and when God intervenes we do not know, only when we see the signs mentioned in Matt 24 and 2 Tim 3:1-5

And yes, I know most of the Bible.

So the world won't end? You don't believe in any judgement day when humankind will have to answer for her sins and stand equal in front of God and be judged by him? The signs that I've heard to be in the Bible can be interpreted in many different ways. What signs are you talking about?

And I have to admit to being impressed by your knowledge of the Bible.

The kind of judgement day you're referring to doesn't exist!
The Day of Judgement consists of a 1000 years when Jesus arrives to lead humankind to perfection.

How would this perfection appear? Would we be great at everything we're bad at? Suddenly be nice to eachother and throw away all weapons?

And if that kind of judgement day doesn't exist... Then what was cataclysm? God pressing the delete-button?

We would be great at what we need already and with competent rulers.
The judgement day you're confusing it with is the following:
I repeat

Book of Revelations 11:18
"But the nations were wrathful, and your own wrath came, and it pointed out the time, when the dead will be judged and when you will give payment to your slaves, the prophets, and to the holy, and to those who fear your name, the small and the big and plunge them into the corruption that corrupts the Earth."

2 Peter 3:7
"But through the same words are the skies and the earth that are now separated by fire and are kept until the day when the ungodly people will be judged and destroyed."

Here I felt that we were going round in circles so I just stopped answering. It wouldn't go anywhere anyway. Sorry if I've made you read all this, it may not be that interesting to read, but it was pretty fun doing it :)


  1. Interesting argument, but yes. Christians have the tendency to try and talk in circles in order to make your head spin. Then again, that goes for other religions as well.
    I guess I'm not a hardcore atheist as I once was, but I'm more of an agnostic, although I prefer to lean to Norse Mythology.
    Christianity never helped me any. When I was going on the church's idiotic "classes" for my confirmation, they told me that if I was absent more than twice, they'd scratch me from the list.
    And this was when discussion of my surgery came up.
    A surgery that caused me to stay at home for more than 3 months. Yeah, christianity can go screw itself for all I care, God's never helped me any when I fought my way back to something remotely like living.

  2. Christianity demands you to be hardcore as soon as you join. There's no thinking about it. Just either you're in or you're out.

    I went through the mythology phase, Greek, Roman and Norse, now I'm settled in don't believing in anything.


What's the first thought in your head after reading this? Let me know!